Momonari

[Eric Tulin]

Peter, actually I think it is quite well known that momonari kabuto derive directly from Portoguese helmets. Together with firearms, Europeans exported in fact also the best armor design to contrast bullets, which is to have them bounced and deviated rather than stopped with a plane surface.

Giuseppe, many things that are "well know" do not have solid evidence behind them. In the case of the momonari, there should be no evidence they existed before 1543 if they were derived by Portuguese helmets. I know of a few "well know" facts that I believe still lack solid proof. Take "tatami armor" as an example. As far as I know, despite many authors claims, there is still no known provable examples of pre-Edo tatemi armors, either in period illustrations or provable surviving examples...that is unless I have missed some recent development.

[Giuseppe Piva]

Of course, Eric. I was answering to Peter, asking if this is known in Japan and if it is a recent idea or if it was already known in the old times.

[Eric Tulin]

Of course, Eric. I was answering to Peter, asking if this is known in Japan and if it is a recent idea or if it was already known in the old times.

You bring up something I have thought about a lot actually, which is what do the Japanese actually know as compared to what we know, what are they interested in, what answers are they trying to find, what questions are they asking and what do they know that we do not. Since I do not speak or read Japanese I have no clue actually other than what little bit of info I can glean from the very small amount that leaks out from Japan to our side.

The Japanese seem to have absolutely no interest in communicating their thoughts through forums, they seem to not want to openly share photos. Over the years I have participated in many forums, on a variety of subjects, and I have somehow managed to converse with people from all over the world despite language differences, but I know of only a couple of Japanese nationals who use Western forums and not one instance of a Japanese national posting on a Western forum about Japanese armor....it just does not happen.

Since I do not read Japanese and most of the Japanese armor books that they use have not been translated into other languages I have no idea what they are learning from the various Japanese authorities who have written books on the subject. I keep hearing "its a cultural thing"....but I personally have seen absolutely no progress in the matter. Yes its true that some non Japanese now have a presence in the Japanese armor society....but has anything really changed? If it is a "cultural thing" and the Japanese continue to have absolutely no interest in openly sharing thoughts and research in the manner which we are accustomed to then how exactly do you go about changing anything?

[John Wee Tom]

Eric,

As we have been preaching, this is one of the main focuses of the JAS to foster that cultural exchange. I know that Jo has been coaxing and lobbying some of the Japanese members to engage with the West and we hope to have their presence at the symposium in Leiden. With regards to their participation on forums, apparently there are some members in Japan that are interested in our forum and will hopefully participate eventually.

We can only just keep trying to make it an environment where they can't help but want to join in by continuing to engage in inspiring discussions.

[Richard Jones]

Of course, Eric. I was answering to Peter, asking if this is known in Japan and if it is a recent idea or if it was already known in the old times.

You bring up something I have thought about a lot actually, which is what do the Japanese actually know as compared to what we know, what are they interested in, what answers are they trying to find, what questions are they asking and what do they know that we do not. Since I do not speak or read Japanese I have no clue actually other than what little bit of info I can glean from the very small amount that leaks out from Japan to our side.

The Japanese seem to have absolutely no interest in communicating their thoughts through forums, they seem to not want to openly share photos. Over the years I have participated in many forums, on a variety of subjects, and I have somehow managed to converse with people from all over the world despite language differences, but I know of only a couple of Japanese nationals who use Western forums and not one instance of a Japanese national posting on a Western forum about Japanese armor....it just does not happen.

Since I do not read Japanese and most of the Japanese armor books that they use have not been translated into other languages I have no idea what they are learning from the various Japanese authorities who have written books on the subject. I keep hearing "its a cultural thing"....but I personally have seen absolutely no progress in the matter. Yes its true that some non Japanese now have a presence in the Japanese armor society....but has anything really changed? If it is a "cultural thing" and the Japanese continue to have absolutely no interest in openly sharing thoughts and research in the manner which we are accustomed to then how exactly do you go about changing anything?

Eric,
Valid points, but I do believe that this forum will be different due to the caliber of it's participants. I think over a very short space of time the barrier of language will dissapear and a reciprocal flow of discussion and knowledge will prevail. Already I am amazed by the contributions of non native English speakers (Aymeric, your passion and knowledge in a non mother tongue astounds and delights me!). This is only the start, have patience and I'm sure this 'tree' will bear fruit.

Richard

[Eric Tulin]

Eric,

As we have been preaching, this is one of the main focuses of the JAS to foster that cultural exchange. I know that Jo has been coaxing and lobbying some of the Japanese members to engage with the West and we hope to have their presence at the symposium in Leiden. With regards to their participation on forums, apparently there are some members in Japan that are interested in our forum and will hopefully participate eventually.

We can only just keep trying to make it an environment where they can't help but want to join in by continuing to engage in inspiring discussions.

John, it is not "our" side that I doubt, I think robbing Fort Knox would be easier but I REALLY admire the attempt by everyone involved and hope I am wrong.

[Uwe Sacklowski]

Eric,
I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Have a look of the development during the last years. "We" have a gaijin as board member in Japan, at least two books were published in a co production (thanks to Luc and Jo), we get translated meeting reports (ok partly translated) including pictures about the subjects, "we" established a western branch of the NKBKHK and we looking forward to welcome Japanese board members to our upcoming "Japanese Legacy III" symposium. The smell of success, or at least we are on track.....

[Eric Tulin]

Eric,
I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Have a look of the development during the last years. "We" have a gaijin as board member in Japan, at least two books were published in a co production (thanks to Luc and Jo), we get translated meeting reports (ok partly translated) including pictures about the subjects, "we" established a western branch of the NKBKHK and we looking forward to welcome Japanese board members to our upcoming "Japanese Legacy III" symposium. The smell of success, or at least we are on track.....

Uwe its true, years of watching the monolithic obelisk resist all efforts to move it have made be a bit doubtful. If you remember, I was a member a couple of years ago, I joined as soon as Jo mentioned it, in fact I have the "meeting reports" in front of me now, have the small, blurred, black and white images been improved any? Maybe you will remember I brought up the possibility of having the reports send in a PDF which would allow enlargement (for us visually impaired) and which would also allow for larger, more detailed, color images to be easily added, as well as cutting mailing costs....I guess hell did not freeze over yet....god I wish I had your optimism!

[Luc Taelman]

Eric,
always look at the bright side of life.
Things are moving, but you can not expect from the Japanese Sensei that they throw their knowlegde in the public, without any effort or comittment from the gakusei to study and understand. This is how things work in Japan. And I fully agree with them.
We are building bridges, and yes there is still a lot of work to do.
Step by step.

[Jo Anseeuw]

Eric,

At several meetings in Tokyo I get already permission to make pictures and send them to JAS members.... That is already a big step in the good direction. You will see.
I understand your frustration concerning the magazine pictures... I will bring it up at the next boardmeeting... But I do hope you realize many things have changed already in the good direction. The Western branch (=JAS) is now one of the main branches of the NKBKHK so it is already easier to get things done as they see it helps me in trying to build the bridge together now with several very motivated people...

Hell is not yet freezing over, but some people here already wear gloves...

Jo