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Somen Question
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:39 pm
by Eric Tulin
Thanks for hosting this new forum, I am sure it will be a great asset to the Japanese armor community, maybe someone can move this to the right category? I believe this somen is the work of Fukutake Ichirô but the mei has been removed, any opinions would be welcome.
Re: Somen Question
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:12 pm
by Luc Taelman
Hi Eric!
Strange to see how some sellers want to erase history to pretend something else.
Ichiro, but also Ototsugu diserve more recognition.
Re: Somen Question
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:48 pm
by Uwe Sacklowski
Hi Eric,
seems some stokes left. Maybe we can compare. Close up available?
Re: Somen Question
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:11 pm
by Paul Gill
Hi Eric,
I Wonder if you meant Fukutake Ichirô, in which case I agree with you.
Mr Burawoy wrote an interesting (French) article on this maker and his son.
Paul
Re: Somen Question
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:56 pm
by Eric Tulin
Paul Gill wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:11 pm
Hi Eric,
I Wonder if you meant Fukutake Ichirô, in which case I agree with you.
Mr Burawoy wrote an interesting (French) article on this maker and his son.
Paul
Paul, spelling corrected, thanks!
Re: Somen Question
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:57 pm
by Eric Tulin
Uwe Sacklowski wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:48 pm
Hi Eric,
seems some stokes left. Maybe we can compare. Close up available?
Uwe, I will see if anything shows up, thanks.
Re: Somen Question
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:04 pm
by Eric Tulin
Luc Taelman wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:12 pm
Hi Eric!
Strange to see how some sellers want to erase history to pretend something else.
Ichiro, but also Ototsugu diserve more recognition.
Very true, the attempt to fool people by removing the mei is fraud and defacing a work of art. While we do have a photographic data base of Ichiro works we have very few verified Ototsugo items, without this it is hard to spot them.
"Hayashi Ototsugu, Shigamyochin Ototsugu
Gendai
Lived in, Gifu Prefecture, Gifu City
From, Nagano Prefecture, Shiga
Changed his vocation and became and armorer
well into adulthood.
He was very good and layering iron and making hoshikabuto.
Sasama Yoshihiko gave him the title of Shiga Myochin Hayashi Ototsugu.
Sign often as,
*Mino Kuni Juu Myochin Ototsugu
*Noushuu Gibu Juu Myochin Ototsugu Saku
*Shiga Myochin Hayashi Ototsugu Kore wo Tsukuru
Passed away Heisei 10 nen (1998)."
Re: Somen Question
Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:09 pm
by Richard Jones
Welcome Eric,
Great to have you on the forum and a very fine mask. Initially I would have said yes 100% certainly a somen by Ichiro but there are a few discrepancies. Yes it looks to be a bit oversized, the Shiwa are all perfectly executed in a big bold style and the ears are very bulbous and well formed. All of this points towards Ichiro but... I have handled four Ichiro masks over the years and without exception all have shown a finer surface exhibiting the hammer marks, something that seems to be lacking in this mask. If you look at the close up image of the nose they are evident but this surface is not consistent. Therefore has the surface of the iron been doctored to age it when the Mei was removed? The second thing that strikes me are the Odayori kugi (tying posts). Again all the somen by Ichiro that I have handled have had a larger more ornate post and the hishi shaped washers were secured to the mask with four rivets. This mask has a fine odayori kugi but not as elaborate as I would expect and the hishi shaped washer is only secured by the kugi and not a structurally weaker four rivet system.
So pros and cons????
We did correspond about a very fine Karura somen I had a few years ago and yes it displayed similar stylistic traits. I summarized based on the fine quality of the washer under the kugi and the bold style that it may have been a work by Ototsugu, but again this was speculation. This somen did display signs of age to the lacquer so I was never certain if it was a gendai piece or Edo.
I am at the same point with your somen, so much points towards Ichiro but there are doubts? More input is needed and without handling the piece it makes a decision even more difficult. Never the less it is a very fine piece and is most likely by Ichiro but it deserves further study. Thanks for posting this and I look forward to other members input.
Again good to have you on board and I look forward to your posts.
Regards
Richard
Re: Somen Question
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:31 am
by Eric Tulin
Richard Jones wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:09 pm
Welcome Eric,
Great to have you on the forum and a very fine mask. Initially I would have said yes 100% certainly a somen by Ichiro but there are a few discrepancies. Yes it looks to be a bit oversized, the Shiwa are all perfectly executed in a big bold style and the ears are very bulbous and well formed. All of this points towards Ichiro but... I have handled four Ichiro masks over the years and without exception all have shown a finer surface exhibiting the hammer marks, something that seems to be lacking in this mask. If you look at the close up image of the nose they are evident but this surface is not consistent. Therefore has the surface of the iron been doctored to age it when the Mei was removed? The second thing that strikes me are the Odayori kugi (tying posts). Again all the somen by Ichiro that I have handled have had a larger more ornate post and the hishi shaped washers were secured to the mask with four rivets. This mask has a fine odayori kugi but not as elaborate as I would expect and the hishi shaped washer is only secured by the kugi and not a structurally weaker four rivet system.
So pros and cons????
We did correspond about a very fine Karura somen I had a few years ago and yes it displayed similar stylistic traits. I summarized based on the fine quality of the washer under the kugi and the bold style that it may have been a work by Ototsugu, but again this was speculation. This somen did display signs of age to the lacquer so I was never certain if it was a gendai piece or Edo.
I am at the same point with your somen, so much points towards Ichiro but there are doubts? More input is needed and without handling the piece it makes a decision even more difficult. Never the less it is a very fine piece and is most likely by Ichiro but it deserves further study. Thanks for posting this and I look forward to other members input.
Again good to have you on board and I look forward to your posts.
Regards
Richard
Richard, great to see you here!!! Thanks for the points, not being in the position to have seen first hand any other Ichiro examples like you have leaves me at a disadvantage, with only some images of other Ichiro somen to compare to I also saw some similarities and some things that made me wonder a bit which is why I am asking for opinions.
Two thoughts....first what about the age of the somen, artists do change styles and methods over years of work, could this explain some of your observations....perhaps an earlier piece....and then there is the matter of Ichiro's son (Taro?), who I understand also was involved in the business, I have seen his name mentioned but i do not remember ever seeing a work of his own making positively identified for comparison. I have seen an example of their joint work together and it was a bit different than other Ichiro I have seen.
As for your suggestion of someone trying to artificially age it....a possibility as well, convince someone its Edo and the price is raised way up, some things to consider. I could have been treated in some way, the metal does not look really smooth and even but without having seen other examples close up I do not know what to look for.
Below are a couple of similar examples compared to mine.
Re: Somen Question
Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:35 am
by Eric Tulin
Uwe Sacklowski wrote: ↑Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:48 pm
Hi Eric,
seems some stokes left. Maybe we can compare. Close up available?
Good idea Uwe but someone did a good job of destroying the evidence.
